Gas_Eyes
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2012 6:44:09 PM
The only passenger car available from the the dealers is the Honda Civic. Two pickups are now being offered, and they are large pickups. I do not have a need for a pick up. I find that the choices are very limited.
My brother overseas has converted a Celica and another small Toyata. He has saved a lot of money. He does not mind loosing the trunk space. Even with his Celica, he still has a little bit of trunk space (enough to put in a few grocery bags). He also carefully watches his CNG tank level. If he passes a CNG station and it is less than half full, he fills up.
Over there, about 10-15% of the stations have CNG. In the city, you can find one anywhere if you are willing to drive 5-10 miles. It is quite popular, and you have to wait to fill up (less than five minutes). All taxis have converted, so you see a lot of them filling up.
If there are more CNG stations that will allow people to drive 5-10 miles to fill up, that would be workable for most people. We just need to start the momentum, and people will find it a good alternative. It seems like several companies are already starting to do it. Hopefully it does not take too long.
Conversion kits are available. They probably are under $2,000. It probably is the best option now because of the very few CNG filling stations now. So if you run out of CNG while driving, you can switch to gasoline to drive to a CNG stations. Again, if it becomes more poplular, the conversion price should come down.
My wish is to have more choices available to the public. It is a shame that it is the fuel that is really in abundant, is not being utilized. Currently, gasoline prices are going up quickly, I believe that CNG prices are stable or even coming down. CNG can reduce the misery of a lot of people each time they go to fill up.
Just my own two bit worth of opinion.
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E-Squirrel
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Orange County
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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 8:09:16 PM
Gas_Eyes,
We have strayed a bit off of the topic of this thread; I guess what we really need is a separate thread just about natural gas / liquified petroleum /propane fueled vehicles. However, since nobody else has posted to this thread recently, nor complained, I will continue here.
Since there are already a number of such vehicles offered for sale, plus conversions available on the market already, why aren't you driving one today?
Of the choices presently available, or shortly to be offered for sale in this country, which would you choose?
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Gas_Eyes
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 6:38:08 PM
E-Squirrel, I do not work for a car a car company or CNG related firm.
I just have seen that they have adopted it in a lot of countries overseas, where people save a lot of money using CNG cars. I've seen a number of 12+ million cars world wide. In some countries I've seen about 10-15% of the filling stations are CNG stations, and that is enough to make it a viable option. Most taxis who drive a lot and have to survive all use it.
The US is just behind, and it is a shame not to have it as a viable option, seeing that we have such a glut of natural gas in the market.
I like CNG because:
a. It is the cleanest burning fossil fuel
b. It is 40-50% or more cheaper than gasoline
c. The octane rating for CNG is around 130 vs 93 or 95 of premium gasoline
d. It is a lot greener than ethanol
e. It will be a good stop gap fuel for cars until the battery for Hybrids and EV's can be made cheaper and denser to improve the driving range. This will help clean the environment by reducing the emissions from cars.
f. The US has a lot of CNG (as stated above) that they are trying to find a market for. Better for local use to benefit the citizens than export it for the benefit of others.
A lot of car companies produce CNG cars. It is time they make it available to US drivers. They won't do that if nobody builds and CNG stations for people to fill their cars.
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E-Squirrel
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Orange County
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 5:44:32 PM
Gas_Eyes asks:
'Will the $6830 be offset by the new incentives that are being proposed?'
Probably not if you are looking at finding the lowest cost of operation for vehicle purchase. The subsidies just end up being money taken out of the pockets of others, particularly those who may not be able to afford the higher priced vehicles. Subsidies are no way to reduce costs.
Note that although the Chevrolet Volt also offered buyers a similar tax credit, that the average income of Volt buyers is $175,000 per year.
As we both know, natural gas fueled vehicles is a very mature technology, and unlike batteries, there are virtually no technological advances expected that would drive greater use. The major issue is the expense and practical issues of providing refueling locations. Given the range limitations, these would need to be more numerous than current gas stations.
To me it appears that the best case for actual adoption at present is fleet use, where the vehicles operate in a region and have a centralized, dedicated location for refueling. You will notice that this is basically where the present growth already is. If more fueling stations could be provided, despite the costs and practical problems, general usage would increase.
Although I considered purchasing a GX, I bought an LX instead. Like most people I cannot afford to buy a vehicle which cannot meet, not just "average" use, but ALL of my driving needs. Even if I could afford the higher price, the time and risk to recoup the "investment" via lower priced fuel is an inhibitor.
From a quick survey of your postings, its very clear that you have a very particular and obvious interest in, and, favorable opinion of natural gas propulsion. Do you own such a vehicle yourself? Do you work in the natural gas industry?
Why don't you post any personal experience you have? Its hard to find personal experience reports on natural gas vehicle use, but its generally more useful than promotional or news items.
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Donatelo
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Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 1:20:43 PM
k
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Gas_Eyes
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 1:17:11 PM
To E-Squirrel thanks for the analysis. Will the $6830 be offset by the new incentives that are being proposed?
I agree with you that the biggest problem is the difficulty in finding stations to fill the CNG tanks.
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E-Squirrel
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Orange County
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 8:25:59 PM
Gas_Eyes requests:
'Someone should compare the Honda Civic GX running on CNG.'
Okay, I can try. For starters, the Civic GX (or now, NG) model is more expensive than a comparably equipped Civic with a gasoline powered eNGine. AccordiNG to the recommended list prices its $24,590 for the NG, $17,760 for an LX, giviNG it a $6830 premium. The NG model is about 150 lbs heavier than a standard Civic, and its larger eNGine has 27 less horsepower (natural gas, like ethanol, has less energy per pound than gasoline).
Since NG is not sold by the gallon, you can't directly compare mileage, but you can costs per mile. Consumer Guide's road test lists a cost of about half ($0.056 vs $0.114) per mile. Both the cost of gasoline and natural gas vary, natural gas delivered to your home beiNG regulated. Honda offers/offered a home fueliNG device for consumers (a good idea given the significantly shorter raNGe of the NG model). The device connects to your home gas utility and costs approximately $4000. It takes about 8 hours to refill an empty tank.
Since the NG model is NOT a dual fuel vehicle, it tends to have raNGe and travel restrictions similar to what a batter electric vehicle might have, except that its raNGe is generally loNGer.
The tank to hold the CNG is larger than the gasoline tank on a conventional Civic, and you lose about half of the available trunk space with the NG model.
Even though fuel taxes are not collected from your home utility gas, in many political jurisdictions you still owe the government tax based upon fuel use. In California where I live, taxes constitute about 25% of the cost of a gallon of gas.
With its higher initial cost and operatiNG limitations, the Civic NG may not work for you (I considered one a few years ago, but rejected it), but its fuel cost is likely to be significantly lower than any of the other vehicles mention here.
Want more information? Here are some links:
Edmunds
Goudy Honda (few dealers sell the NG)
Consumer Reports
[Edited by: E-Squirrel at 3/18/2012 8:28:25 PM EST]
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1006
Champion Author
Birmingham
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 7:50:18 PM
this is one for the
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Gas_Eyes
Champion Author
Dallas
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:10:46 PM
Someone should compare the Honda Civic GX running on CNG. Fuel savings 40-50% or more.
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1006
Champion Author
Birmingham
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 7:37:11 AM
what does overnight charging cost?
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N5EXY
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Austin
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 7:42:44 AM
I'll keep driving my 2004 Marauder hybrid. Burns premium gas and premium rubber but it was paid for a long time ago.
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epf
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Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 7:59:17 PM
Just had a $700 repair on my 2004 Prius, ugh!
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goldrose1
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Cleveland
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 7:27:29 PM
Interesting. Would like usual repair costs added in for that mileage. Chevy is not known to be maintenance free vehicle.
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sparky808
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Honolulu
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 1:36:03 PM
Thank you for posting.
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HawaiianGuy
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Idaho
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 1:09:53 PM
Caveat: While the Chevy Cruze Eco may appear to be the cheapest to run out of the 5 choices, just remember who it's made by. Consider GM's long history of rushing products to market, "testing" them out on the American public, then refusing to make good on their highly touted (inferior) vehicle. This is what is known as "False Economy".
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MOREDLEG
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 9:47:43 AM
The Diesel will run for 500,000 miles,
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GatorGuy
Champion Author
Columbia
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 9:22:13 AM
Finally, a decent article with useful information regarding long term gas savings. Thanks for the post!
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Amplion
Champion Author
Oregon
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 4:11:41 AM
ALL FIVE ARE BAD !!!!
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us4usa
Champion Author
Missouri
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 12:38:08 AM
Most people keep their cars 10-12 years, so you need to do the math over ten to get a true picture of cost... What is the resale in 10 years on any of this cars??? The Ins. may be the big kicker or gas tax if Uncle Sam jacks that up, Diesel surely will take a bigger hit then gas... Some may do better with a NG car/truck??? Just my 2 cents...
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vroomputtputt
Veteran Author
Oregon
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 12:11:49 AM
I've own a Prius sence 2007 and I LOVE IT!!! For 10gals(thats the tank size)of gas I can go about 500 miles. I just wish they would start making the plug-in Hibird.
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regout
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Quebec
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 12:02:45 AM
Oh yes....
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mgune9
All-Star Author
Dallas
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:59:02 PM
none of them appear to be worth leaving my old crv
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g747
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Mobile
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:54:26 PM
I'm buying a Prius.
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goodbuy
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Michigan
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:52:32 PM
Love my diesel. Not giving it up.
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eswi
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Madison
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:51:59 PM
OK
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bif65
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Virginia
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:51:46 PM
ok
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RAKARWOWSKI
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Chicago
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:49:45 PM
OK.
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Benz98
Veteran Author
Modesto
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:48:55 PM
Ok
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must87searcher
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Maryland
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:43:25 PM
There is a lot of useful data in this story. Just because a vehicle does not burn much gas, doesn't really mean that it is going to be all cheap!! There will still be fees for other things as well. Insurance, warranty, and care are others that should be thought of.
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minnesotagirl
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Milwaukee
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:35:33 PM
Add in insurance, maintenance, financing costs, etc. to get a truer picture
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skybiker
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South Carolina
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:35:23 PM
Way to go GM.........
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ShudBWalking
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Kitchener-Waterloo
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:32:26 PM
only time will tell
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defiancegasman
Champion Author
Ohio
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:30:38 PM
BAD MATH!!!
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mstearno
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Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:30:28 PM
DPT
Right on man
that's why Obama wants higher gas prices so they become more equal
Oh don't forget if you run the radio on your volt, you'll get 5 to 10 less miles per charge.....
What a joke
can't wait to see BARAK driving one next January 22nd
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02SilverStroke
Champion Author
Dallas
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:29:36 PM
I'll take the diesel VW.
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nwsynthetics
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Oregon
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:29:07 PM
Oh well. Im still staying with my Dodge ram. At least Ican haul things
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Bezalel
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Oklahoma City
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:28:25 PM
I got 42 mpg in '85 Sentra.
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LanguageMan1
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Tampa
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:26:06 PM
If I had the money, I'd still get something like a Prius or Volt of Focus, as well as something like a Sonic, Cruze as well as a Ram pick-up, and improve upon them all.
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dpt
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Michigan
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:22:37 PM
A lot of assumptions are built into these projections. Not only what will gas, diesel and electric cost over 5 years, but how much of your driving is city, how much highway, and in the case of the Volt, how much driving will you be able to do in all electric mode before the gas engine kicks in. Better to figure out your own patterns (still have to guess at the price of energy, but for electric you can check your actual rates). Then do the math yourself. If you do lots of city driving, for instance, it could bump the Prius up to the top slot. If you can get by on electric most or all of the time and your local electric rates are lower than average, it might move the Leaf and Volt up on the list.
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NedW
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Indianapolis
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:22:32 PM
No EVs for me.
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clermont40miles
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:15:52 PM
Lot o' money!
Is it worth it?
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RitaVespa
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Oregon
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:15:39 PM
Wow, eye opening
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JimL1
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Phoenix
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:12:14 PM
Hybrids are still the way to go, with the Toyota Prius leading the way.
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Hewy67
Sophomore Author
Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:11:08 PM
and after 10 years they will be worth......
and they will cost....
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s6sputnik
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Austin
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:10:49 PM
Turbo Diesel Injection!
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Gas Thirsty
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Los Angeles
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:09:06 PM
I'm staying away from the EVs. They are just too expensive to begin with.
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CDMAuto
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Connecticut
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:08:20 PM
1. 1983 full size dodge 9 passanger window van --- 13 city/18 highway 15 combined (MPG) Price $8,300 Gas over 5 years $10,500.00 total $18,800..
Some times OLD is Better...... or is it just the number game????
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Gas Thirsty
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Los Angeles
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:08:10 PM
Interesting stats ...
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bigoilscamsus
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Lansing
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:06:32 PM
----------------------BIG OIL AND THE MOB-------------------------------------------------Two guys were sitting at a bar depressed over the most recent rise in gas prices ($4.29.9/gallon on 3-14-12 in Detroit). One guy says to his friend,These gas prices are killing me; I can hardly buy enough gas to get to work each week. I can just barely make enough for food for my family. It's a good thing that the Mob isn't involved in the oil industry. They would continually raise gas prices and extort huge profits at the expense of the American consumers." The other guy looked up from his beer quizzically and says," I think the Mob has already got Big Oil in their pocket. They finally found a way to legally steal our money!!"
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darkknight1
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Winston-Salem
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:05:16 PM
not surprised
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